Infantry Support Weapons

[Deleted]

Howdy all. Figured it was time I revealed my shop thoughts.

1. Beasts of burden.
Would it be possible to drop a horse and maybe a mule as a General Item? They were used pretty much everywhere and are a quick transportation solution for a wide range of weapons. Speaking of the immediate situation, they would be used for light (pack) pieces that aren't man-portable but don't warrant a towing vehicle.

2. Ordnance
Things that go boom one time. Demo charges, mines, grenades. The list of grenades by nation is a whole chore on its own, but I also don't like having one grenade per nation. It's my opinion that the only way to account for them all is to sell them as several General Type items. The grenades that fall under those can be listed on-site or simply linked to. AT Grenade. HE Grenade. Frag Grenade. Boom. Every grenade listed with three items. More items for less shop space.

The same can pretty much be done with mines, demo charges, and disposable AT.

3. Correct Infantry Weapons In Shop
Item names need some standardization and/or correction. M1A1 Submachine Gun, M1928 Thompson Submachine Gun, PPSh-41. It looks weird having one item called an SMG, another a Submachine Gun, and another nothing. Some items use names while others simply get model numbers. Is the M1919 MG a specific model?

4. Add Infantry Weapons Not In Shop
Some obvious weapons missing. The Germans have only MG34/42 LMGs and no HMGs. Germans MP35 hasn't been added. The Japanese are missing the 6.5mm Type 3 HMG, 7.7mm Type 92 HMG, 13.2mm Type 93 HMG, 8mm Type 14 Nambu Pistol, Type 89 Grenade Discharger, and Guntō sword.

5. Infantry Support Weapons
I think it'd be possible to get the ball rolling on adding weapons such as mortars, infantry and mountain guns, and flamethrowers. Man-portable or carried by pack animals. Heavier mortars and guns can be considered artillery proper. No aircraft, no AA. No ships, no naval guns.

Here's what could be added.

USA
60mm Mortar M2 - Light Mortar
81mm Mortar M1 - Light Mortar
75mm Pack Howitzer M1A1 - Light Howitzer/Mountain Gun (moved differently depending on carriage)
57mm M18 Recoilless Rifle - Recoilless Gun
75mm M20 Recoilless Rifle - Recoilless Gun
Portable Flame-Thrower M2-2 - Flamethrower, replaced earlier M1 and M1A1 models in 1944.

Britain
Ordnance ML 2-inch Mortar Mk.II - Light Mortar (Muzzle Loading)
Ordnance ML 3-inch Mortar Mk II - Medium Mortar
RCL 3.7 inch Gun - Recoilless Gun
Flame-Thrower, Portable, No. 2 Mk II - Flamethrower, nicknamed 'Lifebuoy', replaced earlier No.2 Mk.I in 1943.

USSR
50-PM 40 - Light Mortar
82-PM 30 - Medium Mortar
ROKS-3 - Flamethrower

Germany
5cm leichte Granatwerfer 36 - Light Mortar. Ceased production 1941
8cm schwere Granatwerfer 34 - Medium Mortar
kurzer 8cm Granatwerfer 42 - Light Mortar. A shortened sGrW34 that replaced lGrW36 as Germany's light mortar.
7.5cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18 - Light Infantry Gun
7.5cm Infanteriegeschütz 42 - Infantry Gun
7.5cm Infanteriegeschütz 37 - Advanced Infantry Gun
7.5cm Leichtgeschütz 40 - Recoilless Gun
10.5cm Leichtgeschütz 40 - Heavy Recoilless Gun
Flammenwerfer 41 - Flamethrower, replaced FW35 in 1941.

Italy
Mortaio da 45/5 modello 1935 'Brixia' - Light Mortar
Mortaio da 81/14 modello 1935 - Medium Mortar
Obice da 75/18 modello 1934 - Mountain Gun
Lanciafiamme modello 1940 - Flamethrower, replaced M1935 in 1940.

Japan
50mm Type 98 Mortar - Light Mortar
70mm Type 11 Mortar - Rifled Mortar (probably exclude)
70mm Barrage Mortar - Anti-Aircraft/Anti-Personnel Mortar
81mm Type 97 Mortar - Medium Mortar
81mm Type 99 Mortar - Medium Mortar. A shortened Type 97 that chops off 2/3 the weight for a 1/3 reduction in range.
37mm Type 94 Gun - Mountain (pack) Gun
70mm Type 92 Battalion Gun - Infantry Howitzer
75mm Type 41 Regimental Gun - Infantry Gun
Type 100 Flamethrower - Flamethrower, replaced nearly-identical Type 93 in 1940.



Edit: It's incomplete.

[Silvan Marcussen D'Alisa]

Jul 13, 2014 21:20:15 GMT @friedrich700 said:

Howdy all. Figured it was time I revealed my shop thoughts.

1. Beasts of burden.
Would it be possible to drop a horse and maybe a mule as a General Item? They were used pretty much everywhere and are a quick transportation solution for a wide range of weapons. Speaking of the immediate situation, they would be used for light (pack) pieces that aren't man-portable but don't warrant a towing vehicle.

This could be an interesting addition. Horses were in the Before-Times shop, and we could easily include both cavalry horses and pack animal(s) as additions.

Jul 13, 2014 21:20:15 GMT @friedrich700 said:

2. Ordnance
Things that go boom one time. Demo charges, mines, grenades. The list of grenades by nation is a whole chore on its own, but I also don't like having one grenade per nation. It's my opinion that the only way to account for them all is to sell them as several General Type items. The grenades that fall under those can be listed on-site or simply linked to. AT Grenade. HE Grenade. Frag Grenade. Boom. Every grenade listed with three items. More items for less shop space.

The same can pretty much be done with mines, demo charges, and disposable AT.

An interesting idea, though I personally like seeing the national personalities showing through in the standard grenades. Should at the very least add some mines and alternate explosives.

Jul 13, 2014 21:20:15 GMT @friedrich700 said:

3. Correct Infantry Weapons In Shop Item names need some standardization and/or correction. M1A1 Submachine Gun, M1928 Thompson Submachine Gun, PPSh-41. It looks weird having one item called an SMG, another a Submachine Gun, and another nothing. Some items use names while others simply get model numbers. Is the M1919 MG a specific model?

For the overwhelming majority of the shop items I've used the official designations for the weapons from each nation, hence, the Garand being M1 Rifle; Enfield being Rifle No.4, etc. As far as I can tell, the designations in the shop for the Soviet Weapons are their official Soviet designation.

Jul 13, 2014 21:20:15 GMT @friedrich700 said:

4. Add Infantry Weapons Not In Shop
Some obvious weapons missing. The Germans have only MG34/42 LMGs and no HMGs. Germans MP35 hasn't been added. The Japanese are missing the 6.5mm Type 3 HMG, 7.7mm Type 92 HMG, 13.2mm Type 93 HMG, 8mm Type 14 Nambu Pistol, Type 89 Grenade Discharger, and Guntō sword.

As far as I've ever known and researched the Germans never fielded a specific heavy machine gun, simply using the Mg34/42 in the roles that were occupied by HMG's in other nations' arsenals. I think I had intended to include the MP35 and I don't remember why it never made it in, so I'll add that. And of course, the Japanese portion of the shop is a work in progress and no where near complete.

Jul 13, 2014 21:20:15 GMT @friedrich700 said:

5. Infantry Support Weapons
I think it'd be possible to get the ball rolling on adding weapons such as mortars, infantry and mountain guns, and flamethrowers. Man-portable or carried by pack animals. Heavier mortars and guns can be considered artillery proper. No aircraft, no AA. No ships, no naval guns.

Field Guns
I spearheaded the inclusion of field artillery in the Before-Times, but now seeing that combat has never come to a scale in which field guns could really be useful, I'm hesitant to include them now. If we can get your island campaign experiment off the ground and it works out okay, I'd be all for it.

Mortars
Run into the same problem as the heavier guns, but battles have come close to the necessary scale for their use and I'd be more open to including a nice selection of them.

Flamethrowers
Yes. On the fence about whether we should include national variations of go with a generic one.

Aircraft
The few times we've attempted to do aerial combat, it hasn't ended well, or just didn't end at all. I'm swinging against including them in anything other than a support role and not particularly sure of how to handle that.

AA
Will depend on what we do about aircraft.

Naval
Will get to that.

[Deleted]

Horses
Thumbs-up. Yay!

Ordnance
I also prefer it, but we only provide one grenade type per nation, and at the same cost. If a General Item system were used, you could even go so far as to make the picture rotate between the images of different grenades. A mere bag of shells.

HMGs
Ah. True, the MG34 and MG42 were used in both roles. The main difference was the inclusion of a tripod (one version rather fancy) and the usual additions such as extra barrels, and oftentimes, MG Optics. In the case of the MG34, the sole use of belts rather than a mix of belts and/or drum magazines. If this extra equipment seems insignificant, I advise removing the LMG designation to make clear their use for either role.

It is interesting to note that German HMGs still mounted a bipod, so they could quickly be adapted to an LMG role if need be.

Additions
Gotcher. The Japanese stuff reminds me of the Italian weapons. Usually of poor or obsolescent design. They do have a few gems though. One piece of conflict would be the Type 89 Grenade Discharger. Would they use actual grenades purchased from the shop, or would they act as light mortars? Because shooting 25 grenades in the space of a minute runs 250CP...

Ordnance
Gotcher. Field Guns are technically artillery, and all the pieces I listed are considered Infantry Support. It's an in-between. Harrassing fire. Direct Fire. So long as the infantrymen can roll it up without transport. Anything that needs a vehicle (artillery) is excluded, for the reasons you mentioned above. We don't have a use for them yet.

Mortars are probably the easiest bit. The Japanese had some weird in-between calibers, but other nations are very straightforward.

Flamethrowers are basically the same. Crappy early models with ignition problems fixed later on. Could go so far as to rotate the item picture between different nation's models if you wanted to make the effort. It's unnecessary though.

Aircraft. The subject is even larger than ships. It's too much to handle in great detail, selling every variant of every model of every blah blah blah. I remember wondering at a dogfight I witnessed here once.

As far as the shop goes, it would need a lot of simplification and leave a lot of the burden on the shoulders of the roleplayer. Ignoring the difficulties of aerial combat, air-vs-sea or air-vs-land combat would be a lot simpler.

AA. Does have limited use in ground combat, but it'd taste like a greasy coin without aircraft.

Ships. Ooooh, ships. Yeah. You know.