Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2013 23:27:01 GMT
This thread is for discussing the future of the shop. This first post is in reply to Heiko in "Issues with Issuing Orders".
I've written and rewritten this about a half dozen times, and this is the final product. You were right that there is something about writing on a mobile device. Maybe we just don't like typing on mobiles so much. We do use more economic use of our effort.
CP costs shouldn't come from the usefuoness of an item I agree that there ought to be a way to make rare equipment rare, but that's a post for another day. I'll say that the usefulness is partially determined by price. If the Pak40 wasn't so cheap and readily available, the Pakwall might never have been invented, and German defensive positions would have suffered for it. You could get a dozen 75mm Pak40s for every Panther. Drive up the price artificially, and its usefulness goes down. Can we quantify usefulness?
As for the scale scale, we do fsll on different sides. I absolutely support your desire for customization and use of squads. Shouldn't we also make allowances for something larger? Allow squad leaders to develop their character, but also give company COs the option not to.
Getting out of the cookie-cutter formula is a must, I agree. Nor would I support loading the actual shop with "ever combination of every combination." in fact, having your blank slate NPC formula would make it a lot easier to build those historical squads. All I really wanted was for there to be somewhere on the site, not the shop page, but a series of stickies drawing prices and items from the shop, listing historical squads, vehicles, and their variants. This would significantly shorten the list of individual vehicles on the shop page, and shorten the upgrade descriptions. It would be obvious what the Sd.Kfz. 251 series could be upgraded to. The shop shows the devices, while the eticky iterates on what can use what. Buying a basic Sd.Kfz. 251 and an 81mm mortar would create thr Sd.Kfz. 251/2 mortar carrier. All the shop would need would be the listing for 81mm mortar, and the basic 251 series vehicle. The person buying can either take it as is, or customize it with a MMG or AAMG. I think that would allow for more customization, rather than less.
The historical pre-fabricated infantry squads are the same. One can still make their own, but looking at the historical ones isn't a bad idea. You can like one idea and expanr on it, or take them as they are. I imagine people making large purchases would appreciate it. It would certainly shave time lost adding up men and equipment.
Different units might make their own squad types they stick to. One platoon uses a variation ot the '39 infantry squad with a few more MP40s and panzerfausts. Another might use a smaller squad with less grenades and some StG 44s. That's a big step towards both customization and better organization, so long as platoons define the squad types under their command.
I'd catalog all devices used. Some would be used in the shop, such as rifles and small arms while others, such as main guns used by tanks, would be used as reference for repair price checks. Replacing the main gun should cost as much as the device costs. Sometimes slightly less, making repair more desirable than a new vehicle, sometimes more, making it inconvenient for severely damaged vehicles. Also, that could allow for units to salvage usable parts from one severely damaged vehicles for us in less damaged ones.
Now, as for blank squads instead of blank NPCs, I'm actually vehemently opposed. It does the opposite of what I want. I do want to see squad variation. I merely want them to be easier to purchase and organize within the squad and company context. If i wanted to found a company myself, I should have a way to without minute shop number crunching. Find a template I like, or make my own. Found that sucker, and open it to the public like a theme park. I decide who takes over as platoon leaders. They choose their squad leaders.
Also, making replacements more expensive than a new unit does the opposite of making it less expendable. I'll use Company of Heroes as an example. Replacements are cheaper than a new unit. What does this do? Make the survivors of a decimated squad more valuable. Keeping them alive is important, since replacing the whole squad is more expensive than replenishing losses. "Screw it, this squad is damaged so I'll waste them since a new one is cheaper." make them much more expendable.
Now back to the pre-fab squads. I'll use a historical German AT Rifle section. 2CP for manpower, ?CP tor the PzB 39 7.92mm AT Rifle, ?CP for two pistols. All that was already calculated. It's shown right next to the unit name. Obviously I can change the order to give them MP40s or binoculars. For some it would be fine. Even if customizing it, Using that as a template makes ordering easier. Send a mod this: Catalog number
7.4.3.3.2, -?CP for pistols, +?CP for binoculars, +?CP for MP40s. BAM!
I'll give you a short list of some entries that would be made, German Armored Cars.
Sd.Kfz. 221
Sd.Kfz. 222
Sd.Kfz. 231
Sd.Kfz. 234/1
Sd.Kfz. 234/2
Sd.Kfz. 234/3
Sd.Kfz. 234/4
Sd.Kfz. 233
They can be organized on a decided format. Use, date it entered production. They would show their armament in devices, ammunition carries, types of ammunition, stats to. Each weapon would have a link to device showing stats. Also shown would be armor, and fuel carried. If we don't bother with logistics we can assume they enter battle with full ammo and fuel loads. A description on each entry, and a picture.
I'll let you know about my thoughts on unit permanence in my next post.
I've written and rewritten this about a half dozen times, and this is the final product. You were right that there is something about writing on a mobile device. Maybe we just don't like typing on mobiles so much. We do use more economic use of our effort.
CP costs shouldn't come from the usefuoness of an item I agree that there ought to be a way to make rare equipment rare, but that's a post for another day. I'll say that the usefulness is partially determined by price. If the Pak40 wasn't so cheap and readily available, the Pakwall might never have been invented, and German defensive positions would have suffered for it. You could get a dozen 75mm Pak40s for every Panther. Drive up the price artificially, and its usefulness goes down. Can we quantify usefulness?
As for the scale scale, we do fsll on different sides. I absolutely support your desire for customization and use of squads. Shouldn't we also make allowances for something larger? Allow squad leaders to develop their character, but also give company COs the option not to.
Getting out of the cookie-cutter formula is a must, I agree. Nor would I support loading the actual shop with "ever combination of every combination." in fact, having your blank slate NPC formula would make it a lot easier to build those historical squads. All I really wanted was for there to be somewhere on the site, not the shop page, but a series of stickies drawing prices and items from the shop, listing historical squads, vehicles, and their variants. This would significantly shorten the list of individual vehicles on the shop page, and shorten the upgrade descriptions. It would be obvious what the Sd.Kfz. 251 series could be upgraded to. The shop shows the devices, while the eticky iterates on what can use what. Buying a basic Sd.Kfz. 251 and an 81mm mortar would create thr Sd.Kfz. 251/2 mortar carrier. All the shop would need would be the listing for 81mm mortar, and the basic 251 series vehicle. The person buying can either take it as is, or customize it with a MMG or AAMG. I think that would allow for more customization, rather than less.
The historical pre-fabricated infantry squads are the same. One can still make their own, but looking at the historical ones isn't a bad idea. You can like one idea and expanr on it, or take them as they are. I imagine people making large purchases would appreciate it. It would certainly shave time lost adding up men and equipment.
Different units might make their own squad types they stick to. One platoon uses a variation ot the '39 infantry squad with a few more MP40s and panzerfausts. Another might use a smaller squad with less grenades and some StG 44s. That's a big step towards both customization and better organization, so long as platoons define the squad types under their command.
I'd catalog all devices used. Some would be used in the shop, such as rifles and small arms while others, such as main guns used by tanks, would be used as reference for repair price checks. Replacing the main gun should cost as much as the device costs. Sometimes slightly less, making repair more desirable than a new vehicle, sometimes more, making it inconvenient for severely damaged vehicles. Also, that could allow for units to salvage usable parts from one severely damaged vehicles for us in less damaged ones.
Now, as for blank squads instead of blank NPCs, I'm actually vehemently opposed. It does the opposite of what I want. I do want to see squad variation. I merely want them to be easier to purchase and organize within the squad and company context. If i wanted to found a company myself, I should have a way to without minute shop number crunching. Find a template I like, or make my own. Found that sucker, and open it to the public like a theme park. I decide who takes over as platoon leaders. They choose their squad leaders.
Also, making replacements more expensive than a new unit does the opposite of making it less expendable. I'll use Company of Heroes as an example. Replacements are cheaper than a new unit. What does this do? Make the survivors of a decimated squad more valuable. Keeping them alive is important, since replacing the whole squad is more expensive than replenishing losses. "Screw it, this squad is damaged so I'll waste them since a new one is cheaper." make them much more expendable.
Now back to the pre-fab squads. I'll use a historical German AT Rifle section. 2CP for manpower, ?CP tor the PzB 39 7.92mm AT Rifle, ?CP for two pistols. All that was already calculated. It's shown right next to the unit name. Obviously I can change the order to give them MP40s or binoculars. For some it would be fine. Even if customizing it, Using that as a template makes ordering easier. Send a mod this: Catalog number
7.4.3.3.2, -?CP for pistols, +?CP for binoculars, +?CP for MP40s. BAM!
I'll give you a short list of some entries that would be made, German Armored Cars.
Sd.Kfz. 221
Sd.Kfz. 222
Sd.Kfz. 231
Sd.Kfz. 234/1
Sd.Kfz. 234/2
Sd.Kfz. 234/3
Sd.Kfz. 234/4
Sd.Kfz. 233
They can be organized on a decided format. Use, date it entered production. They would show their armament in devices, ammunition carries, types of ammunition, stats to. Each weapon would have a link to device showing stats. Also shown would be armor, and fuel carried. If we don't bother with logistics we can assume they enter battle with full ammo and fuel loads. A description on each entry, and a picture.
I'll let you know about my thoughts on unit permanence in my next post.
