What religion are you and why?

[heinz]

I doubt that anyone is a Sikh, Buddhist, or Hindu, but I was trying to cover them all, just in case.

I myself am a Roman Catholic. I do have a very strong faith and attend mass every Sunday. I also do believe, like most Roman Catholics, that there is a direct corrolation between faith and reason, and that the bible is to be connoted, not denoted. The bible is not a book of historical truth, rather, it is a book of spiritual truth, and it is true in what the Sacred Author intends to teach.

I do, of course, believe that Jesus was a real person, and that he suffered, died, and rose again for my sins.

So why am I a Catholic? Well, I was baptized at a young age. My parents don't attend mass, so honestly, I wasn't truly Catholic, so for the atheists on this site, don't call me indoctrinated, because I wasn't. Indocrtination is by fear, my faith is by choice. I really actually didn't decide to fully attend mass every Sunday until the middle of my Freshman year, and honestly, I am glad I made that choice.

My reasons for believing in a higher power, more importantly, the Holy Trinity is this; The Jesus story stands out. After the death of Jesus, many of his followers were persecuted, and during this time, the Pharises were wondering how they would go about handling these Christians. One of the high priests is quoted saying, "Let Christianity alone. If it is not of God, it will die out." Obviously, Christianity has not died out. Furthermore, I can't see how men, who lived during Jesus' time, would die for a mere fabrication, or how, Saul of Tarsus, a notorious persecutor of Christians, would become a Christian and write the Epistles, which are amongst the best works of Faith. I cannot believe this is all just happenstance.

[☤Theodorijk Wijzemens]

Well, here I am, the mos distrusted minority in all of North America: an atheist. Of course, most people become atheist; they don't start off as atheist. I've lived in the United States and Canada, including Louisiana. So, I've seen the fundamentalist Christians before--they're not at all nice, even to non-atheists.

Now, I don't want to offend anyone. I have respect for the beliefs of others; however, as Friedrich Nietzsche opined, I do not tolerate intolerance.

Also, the basis of any good discussion is respectful argument of various viewpoints and, generally, an agreement to disagree in the end. With that, I will make my various arguments toward Heinz's points. No hard feelings. OK?

I'll bold the points I'll talk about:

My reasons for believing in a higher power, more importantly, the Holy Trinity is this; The Jesus story stands out. After the death of Jesus, many of his followers were persecuted, and during this time, the Pharises were wondering how they would go about handling these Christians. One of the high priests is quoted saying, "Let Christianity alone. If it is not of God, it will die out." Obviously, Christianity has not died out. Furthermore, I can't see how men, who lived during Jesus' time, would die for a mere fabrication, or how, Saul of Tarsus, a notorious persecutor of Christians, would become a Christian and write the Epistles, which are amongst the best works of Faith. I cannot believe this is all just happenstance.

1. The Jesus story does not stand out. The following god-resurrection stories came before the story of Jesus of Nazareth: Osiris, Adonis, Tammuz, Zalmoxis, Baldr, Dionysus, Odin, Ishtar, and Persephone. All of these gods and goddesses of various cults and religious communities had almost exactly the same story as Jesus, before Jesus. His story, and others, are not unique. In fact, the story had to have been written decades after the death of Jesus, meaning that details could have been lost.

2. Many of his followers were persecuted. You're right. However, Christians are not the only people to have been persecuted in history and their persecution is no proof of anything other than someone with power disagreed with them. The Jews have been persecuted since they began. Muslims are persecuted throughout the western world today. Christians are persecuted in the Middle East today. And, Christians have had there fair share of persecution of others such as Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, Non-Catholics, Muslims, Greek Orthodox followers, and pretty much every aboriginal religion on Earth. Persecution proves nothing of the truth of a religious belief.

3. Well, I would say the true teachings of Jesus have certainly fallen out of practise in the modern Christian community. The philosophy of peace, 'turn the other cheek,' of tolerance, and belief in the per valence of peaceful disagreement have fallen on deaf ears almost all Christian communities I can think of. Of course, the religious movement going by the name of Christian, whether they exemplify the ideals or not, is alive.

4. This is a big one. Men have died throughout history for, as you call it, a fabrication. I would say a non-truth in this case for the sake of explanation. Why did 80 million Germans go along with the Nazis in WWII? Did millions of them die for a cult that was up to no good? I'm not saying Christianity is evil, far from it, but it is completely possible for people to devote their lives to something that perhaps may not be true. And, it is the belief that dying for a god is good that brought us religious terrorism. I'm just saying that people die in vain every day, for a belief that they will never truly know is right.

5. (Saul and Paul are the same person.)Many of the conversions of the time, such as Paul, are not accurately recorded and even the more conservative bible scholars see the book of Acts, a book written by Paul, is disputable. So, citing works that are still in dispute is not reasonable. Also, conversions during that time were more often done for power reasons than reasons of faith. It's the same today.

And, if you look at any other religious movement, cult, or community, you will find that there are accounts of all the same kinds of events or conglomerations of so-called 'proof.' Christianity is no exception. Christianity has nothing unique in relation to other religious beliefs.

I would say further, that if there was a god, it would be beyond any kind of comprehension of man. God would be a power that cannot be defined by any religion or any human. How could the creator of the universe embody such human emotions as love, hate, jealousy (1st Commandment), and greed. I do not believe that any god could be like that. So, to all Earthly religions, I am an atheist. To the world of spirit and surrounding energy, I am agnostic.

I hope this gets people thinking. There's nothing quite like a good, civil conversation about religion. Have a good day.

[Dieter "Iceman" Rentz]

I'm an atheist because I don't believe in God. Do I need any other reasons, really? If you want some reasons as to why I don't believe in God, you are in for a long list..

I used to belong to Evangelical Lutheran church, traditionally pretty much from the point I was baptized. Our family was never too religious and I guess we were part of that large group of people here in Finland who belong to the church but are not really "actively religious" in any way apart from attending church funerals/weddings of relatives and friends. Many of those people seem to scoff when I tell them I left the church and I find it rather hypocritical, seeing as those people really don't attend ceremonies or do anything for their church at all.

I left the church several years ago now, mostly for the reason of not being active and not believing in God but also due the stupid church tax that they have here in Finland. I'd rather just put that money straight into some charity instead of fattening the coffers of the church.

I still do have a lot of respect for other people's beliefs and don't discriminate people due to their religion or any other things at that.. well, unless you are Swedish, of course.

[rspeirs]

If you are wondering, Doc, this is my secondary account. And what I am about to type expresses the views of Roman Catholicism, not Protestantism. I could easily enough disagree with Mac's view on Justificiation of Faith, as protestants believe faith alone is enough to save you; Catholics believe you must have faith and do good works.


As for a few of your points, especially number 2, the fact that they were persecuted wasn't may main point. The next sentence, about the pharises was. As for your arguement, the three religions you have mentioned, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all Abrahamic Religions. Judaism was the faith of Abraham; he conceived with Hagar to have Ishmael, an ancestor of Muhammad, and he conceived with Sarai (later known as Sarah) to have Isaac. They are directly corrolated and of the same God.

As for number 3, which, in a way, this also ties into number 2, you need to study the Second Vatican Council, which was called by Angelo Roncalli, better known as Pope John XXIII, in 1962. During this council, Pope John XXIII apologized for every wrong doing that Christianity has brought about; this includes the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and any other persecution that happened under Roman Catholicism's watch. He even went as far to appologize for the Great Schism and the events that lead up to the Reformation. He furthered this idea with the idea of aggiornamento, a latin term which translated to the phrase "Bringing up to date." This term would redefine the Church's role in the world. In the document Gaudium Et Spes, which furthered the ideals of aggiornamento, it was stated that the people are the heart and sole of the Catholic Church. That the Church should focus more on the people, and not its role in the secular world. In short, Gaudium Et Spes tried to eliminate any long standing corruption that may have still existed after the other two major councils, Trent and Vatican I. Any persons, especially persons associated with Catholicism, who act in a corrupt manner, especially for their faith, are in direct conflict with Church dogma.

And I was quoting the Epistles, not Acts. There is a big difference. The Epistles are letters to the Romans, Ephesians, and other groups that have strayed away from the Church.

[Daniel Brennan]

I am Agnostic-y. I don't like thinking about if there is a god and I don't care much as well.

[Stabsgefreiter F. Blutstein]

I don't really like to say I'm a Protestant but, I guess that's what I am. I'm a Baptist and have been since a very young age.

I believe there is a God and that He created the universe in seven twenty-four hour days. I also believe that Jesus was God's son sent in the flesh to die for mankind's sins that they would eventually commit. I believe that God will also come back and call up those who have believed in Him and will then start His plan that he made. His plan is shown in the Book of Revalation in the Bible.

[rspeirs]

Jun 18, 2009 18:41:10 GMT Stabsgefreiter F. Blutstein said:

I don't really like to say I'm a Protestant but, I guess that's what I am. I'm a Baptist and have been since a very young age.

I believe there is a God and that He created the universe in seven twenty-four hour days. I also believe that Jesus was God's son sent in the flesh to die for mankind's sins that they would eventually commit. I believe that God will also come back and call up those who have believed in Him and will then start His plan that he made. His plan is shown in the Book of Revalation in the Bible.

Actually, the book of Revelations, which was written by St. John, who also wrote the Gospel according to John, was most likely a cryptic book aimed at portraying the Romans as evil and giving Nero the title of the Anti-Christ. The question is then raised, why did John write this book so cryptically? Well, John wrote the book when he was exiled, by Nero, onto the island of Patnos. If he openly spoke out against Rome, he would have most likely been killed.

[Edward"Butcher"McMillan]

I'm a Prodestant, I don't bother with denominations, to me the reason there ever were different denominations were to say that one group is different thana another and in turn it's a nice way of thinking one ideal is better than another, well you can't prove it so I don't choose a denomination. I believe in God, but I'm not one to try and change anyone's mind about their beliefs. I am in no way a model christian, but I do know that most major religions do indeed have a lot of the same back story, small things changed here and there.

Then there are people that scream for proof, like many people say, we can't comprehend it. Then there are people that say miricles are proof, I've even had a lady chew my tail that God helped Police Officers catch criminals, she then proceeded to scream while chewing my tail when I told her she was wrong. From what I believe God gave man free will, whatever happens, no matter how small or large, was because of decisions and actions that mankind has made. Yes (as I believe) God knows what is going to happen, but he didn't make the choices for you, if he had made all the choices ahead of time there wouldn't be sinners. I believe in God, I believe I have free will, just like I believe everyone else does. I'm not as ignorant as most, but I know I haven't studied other religions, I believe in mine, even if I am horrible at showing it, doesn't make it the right one or the wrong one, it's a choice, I use my free will to make them everyday

-JT

[∬: Erik Schneider]

Meh, I tend to stay out of these kinds of threads, as most of them end up going the same way. However, I have a little more faith in you IO! Even if it may be just a tad misplaced.

Anyways, I'm an atheist. Simple and sweet really. Oh but I suppose I have to explain why? Well like Doc and Dieter, I grew up Catholic, but hardly ever attended church or was active with religious activities. Until one day, my family just stopped going in general. Over the years, I began to question religion and such more and more and researched a little on the topic. Googled, maybe glanced at a book or two, read debates on the subject, etc. When I decided that I was Atheist, I was probably rather young, even younger than now. So, this was quite a lot for my to begin to grasp. Over the years I slowly changed from Catholic, to Agnostic, to Atheist.

But now I have accepted myself as an atheist and most of my friends have found out too. That usually leads to unpleasant arguments though. But so, I believe that we are basically specks in the wind. When you look at the Earth and mankind on scale with the rest of the universe, its really amazing. I just don't base my morals on a religious fear that if I don't I will punish for all of eternity that was founded thousands of years before I was born by civilizations that weren't quite capable to have the knowledge we have today.

In the end, I just believe we are simply a feat of the universe. We are an extraordinary species that has managed to alter our environment and achieved sentient life as well as intelligence. We live our lives and finally die when our cells and the chemical reactions in our bodies finally just stop and ultimately life in us stops. Most likely we enter a dreamless sleep and that is the end. But the afterlife can never be proven, but I can't logically accept that some big man in the clouds will whisk me away to live in eternal paradise. And that is simply my opinion on the matter. Sorry that this came out kind of funny. I literally just got home from vacation and am rather tired, but felt like getting that all out there. Maybe I will be up to raise some facts and whatnot to support myself like Doc. But in the end it is just my opinion. For all I know, you could all be simply figments of my imagination in an endless dream as I am really dead. Or we could be lab animals. Nothing can really be proven at this moment. Not even the past. I can't prove anything to any of you, but only to myself. So in reality, none of us know anything. At all. Pretty mind blowing. xD

Enough of the crazy talk. I am a former Catholicish teen who has turned Atheist. But I don't believe I am all-knowing and right. It is just what I believe, how I will live, and how I will die.

[Stabsgefreiter F. Blutstein]

Jun 18, 2009 19:19:24 GMT @rspeirs said:

Jun 18, 2009 18:41:10 GMT Stabsgefreiter F. Blutstein said:

I don't really like to say I'm a Protestant but, I guess that's what I am. I'm a Baptist and have been since a very young age.

I believe there is a God and that He created the universe in seven twenty-four hour days. I also believe that Jesus was God's son sent in the flesh to die for mankind's sins that they would eventually commit. I believe that God will also come back and call up those who have believed in Him and will then start His plan that he made. His plan is shown in the Book of Revalation in the Bible.

Actually, the book of Revelations, which was written by St. John, who also wrote the Gospel according to John, was most likely a cryptic book aimed at portraying the Romans as evil and giving Nero the title of the Anti-Christ. The question is then raised, why did John write this book so cryptically? Well, John wrote the book when he was exiled, by Nero, onto the island of Patnos. If he openly spoke out against Rome, he would have most likely been killed.

John wrote the Book of Revalation how God told him to. God even told man through the Bible that all of the Bible was written by inspiration of Himself.

John wasn't writing about Nero when he said the Anti-Christ. He didn't know who it would be. This was to take place in the future and still is to come. If you read all of Revalation it states that everyone that has believed in God will be risen up and taken to Heaven. Then the Anti-Christ would be revealed.

[rspeirs]

Jun 19, 2009 16:40:33 GMT Stabsgefreiter F. Blutstein said:

Jun 18, 2009 19:19:24 GMT @rspeirs said:

Actually, the book of Revelations, which was written by St. John, who also wrote the Gospel according to John, was most likely a cryptic book aimed at portraying the Romans as evil and giving Nero the title of the Anti-Christ. The question is then raised, why did John write this book so cryptically? Well, John wrote the book when he was exiled, by Nero, onto the island of Patnos. If he openly spoke out against Rome, he would have most likely been killed.

John wrote the Book of Revalation how God told him to. God even told man through the Bible that all of the Bible was written by inspiration of Himself.

John wasn't writing about Nero when he said the Anti-Christ. He didn't know who it would be. This was to take place in the future and still is to come. If you read all of Revalation it states that everyone that has believed in God will be risen up and taken to Heaven. Then the Anti-Christ would be revealed.

Really? Because actually, the numerics 666 translated to something along the lines of "Hail Emperor Nero."

Meh, there is no point in arguing this considering you, as a Protestant, believe in Sola Scriptura, or a literal translation of the bible. I, on the otherhand, as a Roman Catholic, believe that the bible is not a book of historic or scientific truth, rather it is a book of spiritual truth. I honestly don't think God would put us through so much suffering and anguish in order to raise us from the dead, especially considering that Satan is a lesser being than God.

[Mac Bargett]

I'm Protestant cause Jesus is my homie.

[Deleted]

Presbyterian here.

"4. This is a big one. Men have died throughout history for, as you call it, a fabrication. I would say a non-truth in this case for the sake of explanation. Why did 80 million Germans go along with the Nazis in WWII? Did millions of them die for a cult that was up to no good? I'm not saying Christianity is evil, far from it, but it is completely possible for people to devote their lives to something that perhaps may not be true. And, it is the belief that dying for a god is good that brought us religious terrorism. I'm just saying that people die in vain every day, for a belief that they will never truly know is right."

There is a reason 80 million Germans went along with Hitler's regime, and for good reasons as they would have thought at the time, corrected and by the realization of what a monster Hitler truly was. Funny little thing, knowledge is. Without it, everything can be fine and dandy, a perfect uptopia until the day a person has to wake up and smell the air.

"I would say further, that if there was a god, it would be beyond any kind of comprehension of man. God would be a power that cannot be defined by any religion or any human. How could the creator of the universe embody such human emotions as love, hate, jealousy (1st Commandment), and greed. I do not believe that any god could be like that. So, to all Earthly religions, I am an atheist. To the world of spirit and surrounding energy, I am agnostic."

Apparently, it has been comprehended as best as it may be before death, because everything we may possibly come to know about God is through person experiences, and through the word of the Bible. I believe Christianity is NOT a religion. Religion is a man attempting to work his way to God, and Christianity is God working his way into man. I also believe you are mistaken that God embodies Human emotion. If it is as I believe, and that he created the Universe itself, then would it not be US to embody certain emotions such as said above.

Dieter, you should try and get involved in Christianity again. Do not immediately go to church, if you do not wish. Church tax is not right, it should not be required. A man who gives %2 willingly and happily is worth more than the man who gives %20 with contempt. Buy yourself a bible, take it slow. Noone is rushing you, least of all God, although I am certain he would wish to have you join his Kingdom once more. I personally think it is great that you do not descriminate, Swede's excepted.

"If you are wondering, Doc, this is my secondary account. And what I am about to type expresses the views of Roman Catholicism, not Protestantism. I could easily enough disagree with Mac's view on Justificiation of Faith, as protestants believe faith alone is enough to save you; Catholics believe you must have faith and do good works."

As stated, good works are not enough to save you.

2 Chronicles 7:14-16:

14if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will hear their land. 15Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. 16I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that my Name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.

@ Daniel: Come on! Where's your adventurous spirit?

@ Freidrich: That's the spirit, mate!

Ahhh... Sgt. Speirs! There are many possibles in this case. Yours is a very credible sounding one. Maybe it is not cryptic at all and John just wrote what he heard and saw, and we are taking it in as cryptic, and not fully understanding it? Fully believing it? He wrote it as God commanded, the details of which we can only imagine.

Ed... I believe the same. That the religions of the world deny it is in insult. They create their own stories and history and culture, straying greatly from the one, true God in their defiance. I tip my hat to you for your brilliance, sir.

Schneider, I do hope you will reconsider. What harm has christianity ever done, minus those nutters during the Crusades? (1-7... 8?) I would hate to lose you... stranger though you may be. That so much points to creation, while so many point to the opposite. Surely you do not think such a brilliant thing as your average flea or butterfly could be anything other than a creation?

Just think of the complexities of the human eye... how something such as it came to be... it pulled me out of my unbelieving state not so long ago.

Tsk tsk, Speirs. Maybe he is right, just think for a moment. If you do not take anything in the bible literally, then you are already doomed. It is rooted in history, ready to be unmasked by the wise. If in the Word of God, it says that God would do something, you should interpret it literally. Do not underestimate God, or try to fully understand his intentions. You must remember that we live on a rebel world, owned by Satan (temporarily).

And good for you, Mac-who-has-Mark-Hamil-after-his-role-in-star-wars-and-before-his-face-started-deteriorating-as-his-avatar!

[⊕ Owen Pearson]

Well, I have been intentionally avoiding this thread for a while, but I feel like I need to answer the call more so that I can figure it out, not so much so that everyone can trash my beliefs. I want to respond before I am gone for a month and this disappears from any upkeep.

So, I go to a united methodist church, which is christian for anyone who doesn't know (the endless divisions confuse me too). I was baptized at an early age and went through all the normal path of the system. I went through confirmation a year early because there weren't enough people that were my age, and interestingly I started to question my faith very shortly afterwards.

By question my faith, I don't mean that I am trending towards atheism, just pulling away from the common stride. As I started to actually learn about the creation of the modern religions and where they started, my ideas of my own personal religion changed.

At first, a short while after taking the class, I tried to follow things by the book, like a good person. I was praying every night, going to church, and all the basics. At first, I thought it was right and that my life was improving, but once I reached hard times, and all of the work that I had put in failed me, I realized that I needed to change my ideas about religion, and left my cycle until I knew what to do.

My change started in 8th grade when we began to learn about the Greek gods in my advanced english class. One of the things that I learned was of the Roman gods being exactly the same, only given a better position due to the rise of Roman culture that came. This was probably my first exposure to the history of religious conflicts. The amount of time that both the class and I spent on the topic also gave me the first break into my own interpretation of religion, the idea of sub-gods (it was eighth grade... ). This was the idea that in order for an omniscient god to have his all-encompassing exposure he would obviously need help, as the idea that one body could do so much was impossible.

So, with the creation of this, along with further exposure to the world, eventually became the idea that God was not a single person, but a group of entities that each had small powers in the world but together had an all-encompassing spread. I also had decided that the creation of new religions with different gods was due to the appearance of certain entities to a group of people. Either, the people had interpreted the message wrong that was given to them or the entities had become selfish in their quest for more individual power and had given incorrect information to the people.

After the creation of that idea, I felt content with my thoughts on religions and didn't bother with the idea for the next year, but this past year has given me more insight into the creations of religions. Due to the studying of the mainstream religions in modern culture in my world history class, I went back to my ideas of religion questioned myself.

After considering the problems with conflicts and hypocrisy that are so prevalent in the common religions, I decided that I did not want to be part of one of these groups as their small interpretation differences caused them to separate and feud. So, I decided that I was going to go to my own path, and break out of the system of common religion, but still be religious.

So, that is where I have come to with a religious path. I followed the book, created a new adaption of the book, and got rid of the book. I have no clue where it will go next.

Now that you have heard about my path, here is what I have come to believe about other ideas that have come up here:

-Atheism: I personally don't discriminate against atheists, but in a way, I feel like deciding that you are atheistic is just lazy. I feel that is is saying that you didn't like some of the ideas of your religion, so you decided to just give up on the idea that you could explore other ideas and find your own place. It is also sad to see people sucked into the ideas of non-belief due to the fact that they did not agree with the idea of one religion and then fight the ideas with more effort after leaving, then could have been put out to create a compilation of their own ideas to follow.

-God's word: I think that the bible being the "written word of God" is sad to hear. I feel that it continued as it had began, as a compilation of experiences. As the first five books, The Torah, are a history of the Jewish struggles, and the rest are the combinations of the stories of different people and their paths of religion. I feel that backing it up as the most powerful source of information is an absurd idea.

-Miracles and unexplainable occurrences: Religion is an attempt to explain things that we cannot explain. An example would be the Greek's who would see the waves in the ocean and would try comprehending it by saying that there was a man who stirred the oceans and created the waves. The idea of a giant man who made waves would be considered absurd now, but this is only because we have found why events occur in our lives. We still have created explanations for things in our world that we don't know about that will one day be considered just as absurd due to the new knowledge that people create.

-St. John's Symbolism: The idea that there is a slight cryptic meaning behind the writings is possible in my mind, but it depends on a personal interpretation of the ideas and how they apply. It is always surprising to see how much can be hidden in what seem like simple thoughts.

And to a few individuals:
-To most of the proclaimed atheists: It seems like most of you have decided that there are problems with your religion, and completely given up the idea. I would suggest looking back at some other ideas before completely giving up the search.

-JT: I am happy that you don't try to classify yourself in a specific group. I think that classifying beliefs prevents people from interpreting their beliefs.

-Erik: I think that people who argue about their beliefs in the church the most are the ones who feel like they are bad at following the ideas they defend. They feel that by targeting people who follow less of their ideals makes them somehow better. It just makes them appear stupid to everyone.

-Mac: How is that supposed to give you any platform. It just shows a very closed mind to any other ideas.

-Friedrich: I like that you are preaching the idea of not cementing the idea of being atheist. I think that a person placing themself in a rut is the worst move.

Sorry that I put so much, but I felt that my views of independence were not being expressed. I hope to see some more discussion on this topic as it is so important to learn about.

[Mac Bargett]

Having a friend in Jesus is close-minded?